Grab a butterbeer and sing with us: Snape, Snape, Severus Snape! Join Sam, Taavi, Irvin, and our guest Luke, in discussion of Harry’s first week at school in Chapter 8 of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone!
In this episode:
- Are there Fitting Charms on Mrs. Weasley’s sweaters?
- Madam Malkin’s clever marketing ploy!
- Hermione’s parents would be appalled at Quirrellmort’s dental hygiene
- Did Dumbledore know that Voldemort was possessing Quirrell?
- Can you make a map of Hogwarts for the first years?
- The Victorian language of flowers
- Can Snape’s behavior be excused or just explained?
- House point inflation
- Does Hagrid save his favorite newspapers?
- A wizard is never late, except to class
Pub’s Jukebox: Potions with Neville by Seamus and the Finnigans
I think I failed to properly challenge Sam’s objection to the premise of my argument regarding empathy for Snape. While it is true that Snape has had sixteen years to process his complicated feelings, doing so requires an emotional stability he does not possess. Said stability matures with nourishment, friendship and personal experiences. Snape is almost entirely blameless for his case of arrested development – the few mistakes he does make (i.e., his attraction to the Dark Arts, calling Lily a Mudblood, etc.) are usually ultimately driven by prejudice/inclinations he’s inherited from his parents. And given what we know about Snape’s abusive and isolated childhood, it isn’t surprising that he never learned to work through his emotions. To his credit, he tries – he exposes himself to Dumbledore and expresses his feelings in his own, raw way on multiple occasions – but Dumbledore always shuts down any avenue of potentially resolving them. I don’t feel empathy for Snape because he’s had a hard life – I feel empathy for him because his hard life – I feel empathy for him because his hard life has caused him to become a very confused and conflicted man. I can’t excuse how he treated Harry in their first potions class, but I can understand what he’s going through and show him forgiveness.
You’re a more forgiving sort than we are, then!
And this is where we’ll have to disagree. If a person has absolutely nothing to show in that regard for fifteen years, I don’t believe they are blameless. It is entirely possible for people to make friends and have rewarding experiences, regardless of their greasy hair or tragic past, if they put in the effort.
I don’t believe we see him trying to work through his feelings with Dumbledore, aside from the initial reaction to Lily’s death. Otherwise, we only ever see him ranting to Dumbledore about that Potter kid.
He could have struck up a friendship with McGonagall, chatting in the teachers lounge. He could have gone to the Hog’s Head and chatted with Aberforth or whoever else was there. He could start up a book club with Yaxley. He could have gone to meetings of the Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers, or attended pantomimes put on by WADA. In short, he had fifteen years to try to form a human connection with someone or to have something in his life beyond bitterness and resentment. If in all that time, he hasn’t, that’s on him.
I’m sorry, what?
I think, first of all, it’s important to realize that Snape has been through unbelievable emotional trauma. To recap: he’s suffered emotional and (implied) physical abuse from his parents. To escape, he tries desperately to earn the favor of the one person who accepts him – who sees him. But through a series of mistakes fueled by the ideologies his parents have indoctrinated in him, he loses her friendship and starts down a dark path following Voldemort. This of course ends horribly, with Snape being largely responsible for her death. Dumbledore gives him a second chance, but at this point he’s completely an outcast from society. He doesn’t want to reach out to other people because he fears their rejection – even worse, he also fears that if he tries to love someone again, he will end up hurting that person. He doesn’t want to work through his feelings on his own because he’s scared of what he’ll find . . . he never learned how to do this . . . he never learned how to forgive himself. And it isn’t his fault. (We do actually see him more or less trying to work through his feelings with Dumbledore on at least one occasion, but as noted above, that didn’t go too well.) Therefore, he’s stuck in this endless self-deluded loop of the past, and he’s unable to break the cycle by himself. And no one tries to help him break it, either – the only reason a small part of society is willing to tolerate Snape at all is because of Dumbledore’s connection with him. The point is, he’s in no position to go to a pub and chat with people. He’s in no position to go try to start a book club. And he’s certainly in no position to go to a Wizarding Academy of Dramatic Arts production! We do see him strike up a sort of connection, if not friendship, with McGonagall – and the only reason he would attend a meeting of the Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers would be to express his talents as a coping mechanism. If Snape wasn’t already an enormous introvert, his life full of trauma has turned him into one. I know I keep pounding this in, but I’m not saying that what Snape did in The Potions Master was okay, or that it wasn’t his fault. Whether or not he was taught to avoid doing such things, the actions themselves are inherently wrong. But it isn’t his fault that he’s in the state of mind he’s in as of September 1991.
(Sighs wearily.) . . . .Where is Lorrie when you need her? 😂
Your remarks in bold could equally apply to Lupin, which presents a useful compare-and-contrast.
They’re both traumatised and messed-up by both circumstances outside of their control, and also the consequences of their own youthful follies.
Similar to what we see with Lupin, I can imagine Snape’s attempts to connect with others being messy and highlighting the worst aspects of his knee-jerk reactions to certain triggers. But where Lupin at least attempts to treat others respectfully, Snape prefers the “stab them before they stab you” approach.
There’s a great quote I saw ages ago from a werewolf character noting that they didn’t have the luxury of showing emotions like anger because it would be taken as confirmation of their monstrosity.
How fascinating! That was a total accident on my part. However, I would disagree with you on one matter. . . .
Ironically enough, I cannot excuse Lupin’s mistakes, but I can Snape’s. Lupin did develop that emotional stability despite a difficult childhood, finding solace in his friends and teachers at Hogwarts. Thus, he should’ve been able to process his complex feelings, but chose not to – whereas Snape was never able to in the first place.
To go a step further, I would argue that the severity of Lupin’s actions is far greater. To recap:
-Dumbledore did him a great favor by finding a solution for him to be able to get an education at Hogwarts. But he abused the trust of Dumbledore, his teachers, and his fellow classmates by sneaking out with his Animagus friends on full moon nights, putting countless lives at risk. Worst of all, he neglected to tell Dumbledore any of this, even when more countless lives were at stake. [If Dumbledore knew about the Animagi, he would be able to piece together the mystery surrounding the Potter’s death reasonably quickly. Back then, he actually had a significant amount of influence on the Ministry – Sirius would be exonerated and removed from Azkaban, and Harry (depending on DD’s priorities) would grow up with him. (Additionally, Sirius would not have his own case of arrested development, and wouldn’t face the disdain of the public and the necessity of exile as he did during the Second Wizarding War.) To cap it all off, Peter Pettigrew would have been convicted, and as a result there’s a good chance Voldemort wouldn’t have returned (at least, not in his physical form). That’s a whole lot of trouble that could’ve been saved if Lupin had owned up to his mistakes and been honest with the man who had gone above and beyond to make a place for him in society.]
-When Dumbledore generously offered Lupin a teaching position at Hogwarts (once again, sheltering him from the critique of Wizarding society), he betrayed the trust of Dumbledore, his students, and his fellow teachers (see what I did there?) by still keeping the secret, when things were more dire than ever and the fate of the Wizarding World was on the line. He only admitted the truth when he was forced to – when other people exposed his horrible mistakes.
-Finally, he abandoned his new wife and newborn child almost instantly when the Second Wizarding War really got going – and when Harry Potter called him out on it, he physically attacked Harry in a very violent manner before storming away.
All of these errors were based on very deliberate and calculated decisions. Contrastingly, as you pointed out, most of Snape’s mistakes post-Lily’s-death are impulsive, knee-jerk reactions to particular triggers that affect his sensitive emotional complex. (I’m discounting Snape’s original “fall to the dark side”, if you will, for reasons explained previously.) Thus, Lupin is far more to blame than Snape.
I am curious; where do you fall on the debate between Irvin, Sam and I? Are you willing to forgive Snape for his actions in Harry’s first potions class, even if you can not excuse him?
You’ve misunderstood me slightly – I was suggesting Lupin‘s mistakes were reactive, and that Snape would have similar problems.
For all Lupin’s calculated explanations, his actions (to my eyes at least) very much fall into panicked avoidance that he tries to justify later, believing (erroneously) that it makes him look better.
As a teen he probably wasn’t thinking through the consequences of his actions. Owning up to all of that 20-ish years later will be a Hard Conversation (TM). Given his fears of rejection, it’s hardly surprising that he procrastinates. This leads to chaos when the inevitable happens, rather than being able to plan/prepare. And the same pattern occurs in his relationship with Tonks.
—
I haven’t listened to the whole thing, so I can’t say where I fall on the debate, but my general perspective is that Snape never gave Harry a real chance. I don’t think Snape would have treated Harry any better had he been able to answer any of the questions, because Snape never saw Harry, only Potter.
Even in his final moments, Snape doesn’t see Harry, he just wants the comfort of seeing Lily’s eyes one last time.
Ah, my bad! Well, in that case . . . I would stick to my earlier point – I agree with the entirety of your arguments premise, but I disagree with the conclusion.
That was an extremely accurate bit of character analysis, but all it really says is that Lupin is careless, immature, doesn’t learn from his mistakes, tries to self-justify his actions, and cares more about how society views him than he cares about the protection of those around him. I know I’m giving him a hard time, but. . . . Snape has an excuse for not being able to handle his emotions, while Lupin doesn’t. Sure, he’s had an awful life, but he’s had the opportunity to develop enough emotional maturity to avoid these mistakes. The evidences you suggested, in my opinion, point to calculated mistakes, not reactive ones – that is to say, he had virtually unlimited time to develop responses to each of the respective stimulants, and he still made the wrong choice.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but does your argument boil down to “Lupin has tried to be better, and succeeded a little, so there shall be no forgiveness for his mistakes. Snape never tried to be better, wallowed in his misery and nastiness, so therefore we forgive him.” I find that baffling.
There is plenty to blame Lupin for, but as AbsentMindedRaven said, for me it comes back to the fact that Lupin tried to be decent to other people despite all his issues. Snape went out of his way to be nasty to others. It’s the malice behind the mistakes that make me more readily forgive Lupin than Snape.
“Lupin has tried to be better” is a very loaded statement. He never owned up to his old mistakes, just tried to bury the past and forget all the pain, suffering and death that were his fault. At the same time, the active denial of his previous mistakes were causing a tremendous deal of trouble. (I mean seriously. Just think how much trouble could’ve been saved if Dumbledore or even the Ministry knew that James, Sirius and Peter were Animagi, and were able to piece together the mystery behind the Potters’ deaths.) If he really “tried to be better,” he would’ve started with admitting his wrongdoings, asking for forgiveness and trying to make up for them. I get the feeling that by “trying to be better,” you just mean “trying to be less of a jerk.” Snape, on the other hand, confronted his past mistakes, asked for forgiveness, and tried to make up for them (by spying for Dumbledore and spending the rest of his short life trying to defeat Voldemort). Yeah, he screwed up some, but not because he was inherently bad – because of what his circumstances shaped him to be. It isn’t his fault he was unable to process his emotions. Whereas Lupin was perfectly capable of processing his emotions, and chose not to.
In my last response, I got the feeling that we were beginning to run in circles, but I wanted to try to convince you one last time. Alas, I think we might have to just agree to disagree on this one. It has been a fun and thought-provoking debate, though!
Very well put!
There’s plenty to compare and contrast among Snape, Lupin, and I’d even toss Sirius in there – it’s lot of arrested development all around, and nobody comes out of it smelling like roses. But as you put it, Snape is the only one who goes out of his way to be nasty to all and sundry.
I assure you, we’re all aware that Snape has been through plenty of trauma. He got a raw deal in life, he endured things people shouldn’t have to endure, and it all thoroughly explains why he is the way he is. Where we differ in opinion is whether that tragic backstory excuses the way he is.
Lots of people in this world get dealt a rough hand to play – Snape has not cornered the market on raw deals. So we make allowances, to a point. But eventually – by his thirties – I believe that it is his fault that he’s still stewing in bitterness. No one claims that working through your issues is fun, but refusing to do so and bullying eleven-year-olds is inexcusable however tragic one’s backstory.
I assure you, we’re all aware that Snape has been through plenty of trauma. He got a raw deal in life, he endured things people shouldn’t have to endure, and it all thoroughly explains why he is the way he is. Where we differ in opinion is whether that tragic backstory excuses the way he is.
I disagree; I believe I am perfectly in agreement with you on that subject. I still think Snape is in the wrong for “not working through his feelings” and “bullying eleven-year-olds” – those are still injust things to do, whether he was actually responsible for them or not. I want to clarify that I am not being contradictory here. Let’s say there’s a person who has been severely mentally ill since birth, who becomes confused and murders someone. Their mental illness does not excuse their actions – they are still in the wrong for murdering someone, even though they weren’t actually responsible due to their mental challenges. I believe it is a similar situation here – due to the nature of the circumstances, I am willing to show forgiveness to Snape for his mistakes. To be completely clear, I am not evaluating Snape based on how tragic his backstory has been – having a crappy life doesn’t justify doing whatever you want. The issue in question here is of mercy, not morality. The morality of this situation is entirely objective and could not be clearer – the debate rests upon whether we can reasonably forgive him given the situation. I find that the answer is yes.
Forgiveness is a very complex topic, particularly as we often conflate it with reconciliation.
You can forgive someone for anything in the sense of choosing not to hold a grudge, or to be merciful, but that’s not the same as being willing to interact with them.
I’m curious – assuming Snape survived the series, what do you see his future life being as a forgiven man? We’ve already seen what that looks like post Vold War One, and it’s not flattering to Snape.
If he’s mentally incapable of restraining his worst behaviours, Dumbledore should never have put him anywhere near children. If he is capable, he never bothers to try, and he never, ever says sorry to anyone.
That is precisely my argument: that we should forgive him because he is mentally incapable of restraining his worst behaviours. And yes, Dumbledore is largely to blame for placing him in a situation where he interacts with a lot of children.
Assuming Snape survived the series, what do you see his future life being as a forgiven man?
This depends on a variety of factors. The most obvious one is that Harry is going to be the one pretty much solely responsible for clearing Snape’s name. So if Harry dies, Snape is likely going unjustly to Azkaban, unless he can convince the Wizengamot to let Dumbledore’s portrait vouch for him. If Harry survives, you have the potential problem of a reformed Ministry releasing torrents of post-war propaganda that could, depending on their nature, significantly influence the public’s eye of Snape. Assuming that Harry survives and is able to convincingly prove Snape’s innocence before Wizarding society at large (and there are a lot of qualifiers that have to be met in that scenario), I think we would see a situation where Snape, because of his immaturity, would try to withdraw from that society. And only then, once the Wizarding World saw him for who he truly was, could he try to develop some emotional stability and tentative friendships to sustain it. As for whether or not he would be successful, I cannot say.
Your point about forgiveness vs. reconciliation is a thoughtful and crucial one, and something one must keep in mind when considering these matters.
A note to Irvin: Sam was correct; the nature of the Hogwarts staircases is NOT just a movie-ism. From Cursed Child, Act Two, Scene Twelve:
ALBUS walks up a staircase. Looking around as he does.
He doesn’t see anything. He exits. The staircases move in almost a dance.
SCORPIUS enters behind him. He thinks he’s seen ALBUS, he realizes he isn’t there.
He slumps down to the floor as the staircase sweeps around. MADAM HOOCH enters and walks up the staircase. At the top, she gestures for SCORPIUS to move.
He does. And slopes off – his abject loneliness clear.
ALBUS enters and walks up one staircase. SCORPIUS enters and walks up another.
The staircases meet. The two boys look at each other.
Lost and hopeful – all at once.
And then ALBUS looks away and the moment is broken – and with it, possibly, the friendship.
And now the staircases part – the two look at each other – one full of guilt – the other full of pain – both full of unhappiness. (CC 125)
And most people agree (with a few loudmouthed exceptions ;)) – including the author herself, that CC is CANON, this proves the point. Also, what a brilliant piece of poetic imagery as a literary device! (Lol, I know I’m just killing you right now.)
Thanks a TON again for letting me guest host, it was truly a wonderful experience! You’re all amazing and insightful people!
Well, citing Cursed Child in a canon debate is right up there with “this was mentioned in the Wizards Unite mobile game, so totally canon!” So you enjoy your moving staircases. 😛
It was great having you on, thanks for being a terrific guest host!
WHAT!?!
Let me remind you, Irvin, that in your Dumbledore book that you’re so proud of, the very first thing you open with is a quote from Cursed Child, which you immediately confirm to be canon in the Introduction just three sentences later!
Okay, now I’m really itching for that debate. . . .
Funny, my copy of Dumbledore has the following sentence on page 4: “But this book won’t engage with other sources of potential canon (whether you acknowledge them as such or not): WizardingWorld.com, Cursed Child, the Fantastic Beasts films, etc., do not apply.” Can I inquire what edition you have?
And I quote lots of things. A Very Potter Musical, PUFFs, Wicked… I consider Cursed Child about as canonical (if not less so) than those sources.
I’m pretty sure it’s the first impression of the media labs edition? For clarification, mine also has the tidbit you mentioned, but it’s spread across pages 4 and 5.
“There have been about a hundred books written on what Dumbledore knew, how he knew it or why he did what he did.” -Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, Page 263.
There are many incredible characters in the Harry Potter series, but none has fascinated me as much over the years as Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. J.K. Rowling concurs: “It is no secret that Dumbledore is my favorite character in the Potter stories [ . . . ] He’s a fascinating character on so many levels.” And while there may have been plenty of books written in the wizarding world exploring “what Dumbledore knew, how he knew it or why he did what he did,” we in the Muggle world are not privy to any of them. As such, this is my attempt to write one. (From the Introduction, Page 1)
Perhaps my edition is outdated? I was planning on making a trip to Books-A-Million sometime soon. . . .
Right… so where in that text is the confirmation that CC is canon?
Fine, fine, it’s not technically confirmed, but it’s so heavily implied that imo it might as well be. Perhaps I’m being a little nitpicky.
Also, I’d just like to point out that the AUTHOR HERSELF CONFIRMED CURSED CHILD TO BE CANON! I mean, you can’t get any clearer than that! Besides, the characters are written beautifully, the plot is engaging without any major plot holes, and the morality and themes are as good as ever!
You know what? To heck with it. How much did you say you wanted on Patreon for that debate?
I’ll whore myself out for $20.