Join hosts Aureo, Ev, and Sam as they discuss the titular chapter full of family drama and bad communication in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
In this episode:
- Siriusly how does wizarding inheritance work?
- Sirius deserves a vacation
- Wizarding marketing focus groups
- Did Bill just lose the important scrolls?
- Ron would do well to learn from Molly
- Why is Mundungus in the Order?
- Molly wins but Sirius catches the snitch
- Harry should have been told the truth
- Lupin should have made an effort to be an active part in Harry’s life
- Harry is viewing this from a Harry-centric perspective
Pub’s Jukebox:
These Days Are Dark by Harry and the Potters
Will you guys plan to do more chapter revisit type of episodes, with Alohomora announcing their coming to a close? Not sure if that changes anything for this podcast but figured I’d bring it up.
Something of a hot take I have: I like Lupin, but I do think his relevance to the story is largely overestimated and blown out of proportion by the fandom. Sure he was the first “good” DADA teacher they ever had, but I don’t think his relevance to the plot extends very far beyond PoA. If he never appeared again a la Quirrell (not saying he needed to die, but if he just went away) would the story really change all that much? We see him fight with Sirius, fight with Harry, fight with Snape. And he by and large loses all of these “fights” so in the end what does it really matter? I think he may have been a better godfather than Sirius (up for discussion) but once Sirius entered the picture and proved his innocence to Harry, I think it was over for Lupin.
All that to say, I find it incredibly reasonable and within character that he “kind of” disappears throughout HBP and doesn’t really try to be a part of Harry’s life. And I would take that a step further and say that if he HAD decided to try and “replace” Sirius, I don’t think the fandom (nor Harry) would appreciate him nearly as much as they do and would in fact actively dislike him for attempting to do so.
Should Harry have been told the truth? I don’t know that I agree with your assessment that he should’ve been. I’m open to changing my mind but I think telling Harry the truth would’ve made Voldemort realize that much sooner that there’s a connection between his mind and Harry’s, and it would’ve been much more likely he would’ve taken advantage of it sooner than he ended up doing so. This could have changed the outcome of the book and the rest of the series of course, but I think it is very much in character for Dumbledore to not tell Harry about this connection. From a storytelling perspective, it’s also one of the (few) MAJOR “screw-ups” Dumbledore has, which I think at this point in the series we needed to see that yes, Dumbledore is not infallible and can make mistakes too–very important for Dumbledore’s character and to get the fans to stop seeing him as an unstoppable force.
I agree with you on both points.
Lupin is probably my favourite character, but I don’t know if that would still be true if he’d played a bigger role. We’d have had more time to experience (and be frustrated by) his neuroses.
There was a very good reason to limit Harry’s knowledge, but the way they went about it was a mess. Giving him hints and then implying he’s unworthy (too young etc) of knowing more? Catnip to our nosy protagonist.
Since we’re not affiliated with Alohomora in any way, we won’t be changing anything based on what they’re doing. However, if you want more chapter revisits, let us know and we’ll take it into account!
To be transparent, we try to do chapter episodes every 2.5 episodes or so. The Percy Jackson crossovers – first needing to do a redemption round, then it becoming a two-parter – kinda squeezed out some chapters in the last few months, so the chapters have been slightly rarer than we intended. We’ve a more regular chapter/topic alternation coming after the summer. But since we’re still new-ish, we definitely take listener feedback to heart!
To clarify…I’m not necessarily asking for more chapter revisits, I was just curious if you were going to change your plans based on what they’re doing. I thought for some reason you guys were connected.
I actually tend to prefer the “topic” based episodes as opposed to individual chapter revisits.
Rather than asking “should Harry have been told X?”, we could think about whether the other characters involved (Sirius, Lupin, Mr & Mrs Weasley) know about X.
Dumbledore keeps secrets.
The Order don’t seem to know what they’re guarding in the Department of Mysteries, so the whole “weapon” discussion could be Sirius speculating (another reason Molly gets so upset about it). They certainly don’t know that there’s a prophecy about Harry and Voldemort. (Occam’s Razor says Voldemort went after the Potters because they defied him, and just wants to get even with Harry for defeating/escaping him last time(s).)
The Order also haven’t been told about Harry and Voldemort’s connection. Dumbledore only knows for sure after Harry’s dream at the start of GoF, and he’s desperate to keep it secret lest Voldemort make use of it. The less people that know, the better. After Nagini attacks Arthur, the secret is out, so plan B: occlumancy.
You’re absolutely right here. I think the one thing they could and should have told Harry, though, is that Voldemort is seeking something hidden in the Department of Mysteries. That would’ve put Harry on his guard (ie. regarding Voldy luring him there), and presumably he wouldn’t try to go nosing around in the government building even if he was curious as heck. While it’s a moot point, by and large, I think it would’ve been an important show of confidence in him, and would have allayed his concerns far more than the “no, we can’t tell you anything beyond big general stuff!”
Definitely agree! I just feel that the discussion often puts too much blame on the people (not) telling Harry stuff, without acknowledging that they’re operating under limited information themselves.
I really love your point that we were due for a Dumbledore screwup in the story. Particularly as the series matured and Harry came into his own, Dumbledore couldn’t be the answer to everything, where the only goal is “let’s get to Dumbledore and the day will be saved.” I also agree this particular screwup was wholly in character for Albus!
Your understanding of wizarding portraits is a little off. It’s only the headmasters who teach their portraits things while still alive, because the headmaster portraits need to offer guidance to the current headmaster. As far as we know, other people don’t tutor their portraits. The magic is in the painting, and how much of the subject the artist captures. And Jo specifically said that Walburga’s portrait is in contrast to the headmasters’ as “not a very 3D personality,” so Sirius wouldn’t have had to do anything beyond posing for a portrait in order to have one.
If a portait of Sirius exists, it would likely be from before he ran away from home (16ish if I remember correctly?). Harry already felt like he had to be the adult at times when interacting with Sirius, and hoo-boy, a portrait of early-teens Sirius would not have helped.
Oh wow… 16-year-old Sirius energy is a little terrifying to contemplate.
I don’t think it’s that Dumbledore has a fixation on one method (for dealing with Sirius and/or Harry), just that he’s got a lot of plates in the air.
Dumbledore’s approaches (tell Sirius to stay put, stay away from Harry) were fine as stop-gap measures, but it would be very easy for him to not realise that a few months have gone past and he hasn’t gotten around to enriching Sirius’ enclosure.
Seconded. It’s Voldemort that we see married to particular methods; Dumbledore is more flexible, but just has SO much going on at the moment! It’s also a matter of perspective: when you’re 150ish, six months seems like no big deal; it passes very differently for teenagers (or thirty-year-old men in arrested development).
A lot of people (myself included) read Tonks’ clumsiness as a result of her proprioception (sense/awareness of body position) being off (akin to teenage clumsiness after a growth spurt).
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I assume the scroll-vanishing was equivalent to the confidentiality idea of “burn after reading”. No-one show Dumbledore “Inspector Gadget”; he’d have too much fun with “this message will self-destruct”.
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Perhaps Fawkes was Dumbledore all along (in animagus form, via time-turner shenanigans). It gives another explanation for why Fawkes is never seen again after the funeral.
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Even if Voldemort may not hold up his end of any bargain, it would still be a favourable option for the goblins. If Voldemort wins, even if he doesn’t give them wands, he’s probably content to let them continue as they are (seeing them as serving wizards). If Voldemort loses, the weakened wizards will be easy pickings for another goblin rebellion.
I dunno where y’all got the idea that “Voldemort” was Taboo in the first war, but there’s no evidence of that. In fact, judging by how Dumbledore and the Marauders use the name with impunity, there is strong evidence that it was never Taboo until DH. That’s why it’s so surprising and such a masterstroke when he does it in DH, it’s a new and genius way to get at the few people who were never afraid of just the name itself.
P.S. It’s such a Gryffindor podcast. “I just don’t understand why people would be afraid of a thing!”
I think Sam raised it as a possibility, and the conversation ran with it as a starting assumption rather than a known fact.
Superstition and voldephobia does seem a more likely explanation for the whole “he-who-has-many-hyphenated-names” thing (Voldemort also hates Harry for muscling in on his territory). Maybe the Order should call him “the Scottish Dark Lord”?
However, I think Dumbledore benefits more than Voldemort if the connection to Tom Riddle is a secret. Voldemort isn’t being discreet about his father at the end of GoF; for him it’s an old identity that he’s left behind, and people should respect/fear him enough to follow suit.
Dumbledore acts (and it is an act) similarly cavalier about it when conversing with Voldemort, to show that he doesn’t respect or fear him. But in front of anyone else, it’s “Voldemort”, because Dumbledore actually places great importance on Voldemort being Tom Riddle, and doesn’t want Voldemort to realise that, lest Voldemort guess that Dumbledore is delving into Riddle’s past and learning his secrets.
That was superb analysis, well done indeed! I enthusiastically agree!
And an addition: I think that when Dumbledore uses “Voldemort” in company, he is specifically trying to push back against the fear. We get no indication that the people who know Voldy is Tom Riddle are in any way scared of “Tom Riddle.” They are all specifically afraid of saying “Lord Voldemort.” So if Dumbledore is pushing back against their fear of his adversary, he will try to push them to use the very name they’re afraid of, rather than presenting “Tom” (which could be perceived as a workaround rather than a defiant stand).
Very much so! Which illustrates how tricky a balancing act Dumbledore is playing (“lets see, I want to encourage them that Voldemort is only human, but not draw attention to how much I know about his past, so…”)
You can’t teach an old dog new tricks; Sirius has learned “sit”, but not “heel”.
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The troubling aspect of having a single media outlet (because aren’t all the other publications – save the Quibbler – run by the same company?) is not that the state is in control, but that the state doesn’t need to be.
If Fudge put out an official Ministry Press Release after the third task, saying that Cedric was tragically killed and Harry was traumatised and hallucinating, then that frames the discussion. Anything Dumbledore tries to say afterwards would already be viewed skeptically (“He believes the lying/crazy teenager?”), and that would compound over time.
Note that after Harry’s story – in his own words – gets published, that people start changing their minds. Prior to that, people had only heard Fudge’s opinion, and Fudge hadn’t listened to either Crouch Jr or Harry.
Agreed. I always thought the DP was equivalent to Fox here in the US – it’s privately run, but decided that serving as a propaganda machine is in its fiscal interest.
I don’t think we know about the other publications and the media ownership landscape of the wizarding world, but I think it’s also the case that “Transfiguration Today” isn’t exactly the venue for political speech, and I imagine it wouldn’t go over well were they to wade in.
Shout out to the discussion on the Molly-vs-Sirius rhetorical rumble, that was very good! I enjoyed the exploration of the dynamics among the four adults in the room.
One suggestion: I think Aureo was surprised the Weasley parents hadn’t discussed what to say and how to treat the coming-of-age Weasleys. I read it as the opposite, that they had discussed it, and that is why Molly conceded so quickly: Arthur is reminding her, “They’re of age, we can’t keep them in the dark… like we’ve discussed?” I think it was more that Molly strayed from the party line in her passion.
The way they go after each other is part of a larger theme we can explore, about how the adults in the series tend to hit below the belt way more than the kids, and particularly in Book 5. The example always coming to mind is Sirius’s “you’re less like your father than I thought,” which, like, how dare he?
There does seem to be a running theme of adults that lash out at slight provocations. Maybe its a result of living through Vold War One; in order to survive you had to react swiftly and decisively to threats, and their psyches haven’t recovered/have relapsed.
Although that is true, and technically a compliment, given James was an arrogant toe-rag. But Harry hadn’t realised that yet.