Join hosts Aureo, Irvin, Sophia, and guest Margarete as they discuss chapter 3 of Half-Blood Prince: Will and Won’t.
In this episode:
- Multiple choice question: why is Harry snoring?
- Sponsoring chapters! This chapter brought to you by oak-matured mead
- Augusta Longbottom is the nuisance caller to the Daily Prophet
- The many many things Vernon and Albus have in common
- All about the color puce
- Dudley learned his lessons with food and magic
- Rosmerta has a mead subscription club
- Teddy Lupin’s going to inherit a sweet bachelor pad
- Fudge’s years-long pursuit of Buckbeak, the wizarding world’s greatest fugitive
Aurelia! I can indeed confirm that I am okay!!!
Glad to hear it, Sam!
Also I am very down to have a 3B tat
We need to definitely do that at some point!
Having multiple sources describing the current state of things is also valuable for knowing who can be trusted: by comparing different takes the reader can get an idea of how much each is editorialising.
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Chapters sponsered by the Three Broomsticks and Madam Puddifoot’s shows the difference in ad-reads when the talent actually uses the product in question.
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I agree that the Prophet’s prophecy speculation makes for a good story and helps sell papers, but it’s also the message that reassures their audience without requiring anything from them. It’s not “get up and take action”, it’s “leave it up to some teenager”. Huh. What does that remind me of?
I really like your first point! That’s so true.
Your third point… yeah, that’s depressing as all hell, but spot-on. Same thing Scrimgeour is pushing, right – just give everyone hope that there’s a teenage messiah who’ll save them, and they can keep living their lives with only minor inconvenience!
I don’t know if I wondered specifically about Scrimgeour and Dumbledore’s argument, but I was curious about what Scrimgeour would be like (and very disappointed in him after the Christmas visit). Arguing with Dumbledore doesn’t mean he’s bad; Fudge wouldn’t even engage in the discussion. Mind you, being better than Fudge isn’t the highest of bars.
Hmmm. If Amelia Bones was killed because she was too fair/incorruptible, what dirt do we think Voldemort had on Scrimgeour?
Scrimgeour shows himself to be a politician more than a policeman; he takes action because he is forced to by Voldemort’s public appearance, but he’s taking actions that are easy to do and cast the Ministry in a good light rather than the difficult and potentially-unpopular actions that might actually have an impact on the war.
That said, I think the 6 of the 7 pieces of advice are (while often facile) pretty sound:
So my vote for the worst is 7. Nothing about how to deal with an inferi attack. A zombie isn’t going to stop gnawing on your leg while you wait for some bureaucrat to record a sighting in your location.
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I don’t know about ship-name, but Barnabas often referred to his many dalliances as his Cuffe-links.
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There’s a (British?) idiom “to be led up the garden path”, meaning to be deceived. Instead, here Dumbledore comes up the path to Harry, showing that his letter was truthful.
I dunno that Voldemort necessarily had dirt on Scrimgeour, I think he just found him to be manageable precisely because of what you said – Scrimgeour pursues the easy wins and the appearances, rather than putting in hard work to actually make a difference. I think Voldemort knew that controlling the Ministry (or even having a puppet Minister) wasn’t feasible until Dumbledore was out of the picture, so in lieu of that he accepted a Minister that didn’t interfere with him overmuch, whereas Amelia Bones would have.
I actually snorted reading this!
I give it a matter of months before Geoff comes back with a wrock song titled “Cuffe-links.”
To your point that Scrimgeour comes across more as a politician than a detective/police: I think it’s unfortunately part of our society that with higher positions a lot of politics seeps in, and this IS the highest political position in the wizarding world. So while he may have been a really good Auror at some point, to climb the ranks he probably also is good at playing his part in politics.
So, you’re saying Rosmerta is essentially running a savings bank on the oak-matured mead standard? Hopefully she has enough on hand in case there’s a run on the pub…
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With a bit of thought, I’m sure we can get to 7 commonalities between Vernon and Dumbledore:
On that last point, I agree that Dumbledore is crossing the line here, and that for all we’re meant to cheer him on, this scene feels uncomfortable (probably because he’s “muggle-baiting”).
Regardless of whether you’d drink the mead or not, this is a situation where a man has knocked on your door, insinuated himself into your home, and casually proven that he can do whatever he wants to you and you cannot stop him, all while appearing genial and charming. This is psychopathic behaviour, and I don’t use that term lightly.
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Maybe Harry (who does take after his mentor) offered to sell #12 to Vernon, as a peace offering. Chattels included. 🙂
Yes! The goblins should be much more worried about Rosmerta supplanting Gringotts! Time for another rebellion, led by Griphook the Grumpy and Bogrod the Bored.
And I think we need to start outsourcing our Seven-Ingredient Specials to you, that was very well done!
So glad I discovered this podcast! I had to leave a comment right away. I haven’t finished the episode yet, but Rufus Scrimgeour is currently one of my favorite characters just like someone said so I have to write a short essay defending him. See below “A Defense of Rufus Scrimgeour” by NoNeedtoCallMeSirProfessor. Because Rufus Scrimgeour did nothing wrong.
Harry blames him for not standing up for him in OotP. Let’s think for a second about what this would look like. First of all, Rufus has never even met Harry. He has no reason to go against Fudge–his boss’s boss–on the word of a 14 year old boy. Yes I know Dumbledore says so too, but Fudge makes it very clear throughout this year that anyone in line with Dumbledore can clear out. Secondly, you can’t ask someone to jeopardize their livelihood for a cause and then hold it against them when they refuse. I realize it’s very easy for Harry and Dumbledore to stand up for what they believe in, but neither of them report directly to Fudge and Fudge has no real power over either of them until he and Umbridge start enacting educational decrees. Yes I realize Arthur, Kingsley, and Tonks are also in the Order but we see them get mistreated by Fudge throughout the book for their belief in Dumbledore. Could an argument be made that Rufus never would’ve been Minister had he stood up for Harry and Dumbledore? Maybe, but then we’re right back where we started with whoever would’ve taken over as Minister after Fudge was sacked.
So Voldy revealed himself, Fudge was sacked, and now Scrimgeour is Minister. He calls a meeting with Dumbledore right away. Great! Dumbledore proceeds to refuse to tell him anything about how he/the Ministry can help in the war. I realize Dumbledore thinks telling Scrimgeour about Horcruxes is a terrible idea (is it though? If more people know about Voldemort’s Horcruxes, more people can hunt them. Just something to think about.) But surely Dumbledore could’ve given Scrimgeour something to go on. Instead he just refuses Scrimgeour the opportunity to speak with Harry.
So Scrimgeour, naturally, seeks advice from whoever he can get it from. Dumbledore and Harry are unwilling or unable to give it to him, so he goes to the two people who have experience working with them and who will actually help him: Fudge and Umbridge. Yes I realize these are terrible people to get guidance from, but what other choice does Scrimgeour have? Dumbledore won’t give him anything to go on, he won’t even let him talk to Harry. I don’t think Harry flitting in and out of the Ministry will do much good, but perhaps that could have led to Scrimgeour doing something beyond what he does.
Fast forward to Christmas. Scrimgeour corners Harry, and Harry shows him scars on the back of his hand. For one thing, I don’t think Scrimgeour had any idea that Umbridge was the one who made him do that. Harry doesn’t explicitly tell Scrimgeour this, and I feel he should have. Scrimgeour mentions Umbridge to Harry by name, and it would have been very easy for Harry to be like, “oh, did you know what she made me do Minister?” (shows hand) If that had gone down that way I would not blame Harry for breaking off contact, but Harry is leaving a lot of ambiguity up to Scrimgeour. I don’t think he’s a dumb guy, he probably could have pieced things together. But I don’t think he’d spend much time thinking about it. Also keep in mind at this point Umbridge is one of two people who are actually helping Scrimgeour. We obviously know that she’s a terrible help and is more in line with Voldemort than Scrimgeour, but Scrimgeour doesn’t know that. Again because no one bothered to tell him.
Fast forward to Deathly Hallows. Dumbledore is dead. And we have a man in charge of the wizarding world who has no idea what to do. No clue whatsoever. Harry and Dumbledore didn’t leave him anything to go on. But hang on, Dumbledore left Harry and his two closest friends (remember Umbridge is helping him so he knows all about Harry from her) items in his will. So with nothing else to go off of, he locks himself in his office and tries to find something, anything, that can help his Ministry win the war against Voldemort. He’s a desperate man at this point, even Harry says he looks like he’s aged considerably between Dumbledore’s funeral and the Will of Albus Dumbledore. With nothing else to go on, no one else to turn to, he tries to discover what Dumbledore left Harry, Ron, and Hermione. But obviously to no avail.
So he goes to see them. And it goes about as well as you’d expect. When Rufus learns nothing from the trio, he, in an act of desperation and despair, lashes out at Harry and regrets it instantly. Rufus has a point here: Harry and the Order should be working with the Ministry. Instead they don’t even bother telling Rufus his Head of Magical Law Enforcement is under the Imperius Curse. Think of how much trouble they could’ve saved if they had just told Scrimgeour that Pius Thicknesse was under the Imperius Curse. Mad-Eye told the whole group this before the 7 Potters battle, why did no one think it important to tell Scrimgeour this bit of information? I realize Voldemort still probably would’ve taken over the Ministry at some point, but this simple act could have bought the trio precious weeks, maybe even months, where they didn’t have to be on the run out camping. Voldemort even says so himself: “one failed attempt on the Minister’s life will set me back a long way.” (Deathly Hallows, Ch. 1)
It does kind of surprise me that Dumbledore didn’t actually push him further to give Scrimgeour a chance: he could’ve taken Harry with him to the Ministry right after going to recruit Slughorn. If nothing else, I think if Dumbledore had pushed Scrimgeour to give Harry a full-on written, public apology he would’ve encouraged Harry to go with him to the Ministry to at least meet Scrimgeour with Dumbledore present. I don’t know if telling Scrimgeour about Horcruxes would’ve been a good idea, but certainly using the building full of Aurors and Ministry police in the war against Voldemort would’ve been a good idea.
In conclusion, Scrimgeour did nothing wrong. Everything the Ministry did was Fudge and Umbridge, not Scrimgeour. Neither Harry nor Dumbledore felt it important to tell Scrimgeour anything, which led to the Ministry falling and Voldemort getting as powerful as he did. While I don’t know that giving Scrimgeour more guidance would have saved the Ministry in the long run, it certainly would have helped delay Voldemort’s rise to power which would have resulted in fewer deaths.
Host Sam here – I think I’d disagree with the conclusion, even when I agree with many of the points. Scrimgeour definitely did many things wrong. Dumbledore’s lack of trust in the government doesn’t do Scrimgeour any favors, but attempting to use Harry as a Mascot is hugely abusive towards the teenager. His jailing of Stan, while knowing he’s not Death Eater should be illegal as it both unethical and immoral from just about any cultural standpoint.
Otherwise an impeccable essay! We look forward to reading more of your comments!
Thank you for replying! I was hoping some of you would take some time and respond so we could have a discussion.
I’ll concede that using Harry as a mascot is abusive, though I think we need to remember that using Harry as a mascot was initially Fudge’s idea. While I agree it’s a terrible idea, Scrimgeour is clutching at straws for things to do at this point and takes ideas from anyone. Fudge is one of the people actively helping him out, he consents to stay on as an advisor. So I think it would be natural for Scrimgeour to take Fudge’s idea and run with it. I think it would have been a better use of Dumbledore’s time to humor Scrimgeour a little bit, have him meet with Harry to give him a formal written apology, and then give Scrimgeour some additional ideas for what else he could do. I don’t think it needed to be anything more than 1-2 meetings with Harry (which happen throughout the course of the book anyway), but Dumbledore really should have given Scrimgeour something to go on. He didn’t, so Scrimgeour went with a combination of his own ideas and the people who actually helped him out…namely, Fudge.
As far as Stan Shunpike is concerned…if I remember correctly he was bragging about knowing the Death Eaters plans in Half-Blood. True or not, even in real life if you’re going around telling people you know what terrorists are about to do you are going to attract the attention of law enforcement. So I actually don’t think the imprisonment of Stan is totally unjustified to be honest. I feel the same way about Mundungus being imprisoned for impersonating an Inferi. Especially in a time of open warfare, intentionally spreading fear and misinformation is not something to be taken lightly. Would it warrant an Azkaban sentence? Perhaps not, maybe a fine or something would have sufficed. But that’s one thing Rufus actually did try to do, as we see with Arthur’s new job at the start of HBP. Was it successful? Obviously not. Was it a valuable use of Ministry time and resources? Up for discussion I guess. I think that time would be better spent reinforcing protection around Azkaban, but no one gave Rufus that idea apparently.
Stan’s arrest is entirely reasonable, but not his subsequent treatment. As you said, a fine would have been more appropriate, but he’s still locked up nearly a year later.
While I understand your argument, there comes a point where Scrimgeour ought to be providing his own ideas. He is supposed to be in charge, after all.
We do see Scrimgeour’s ideas come through at the beginning of HBP. Providing the Muggle Prime Minister with Kingsley as security, sending out those pamphlets, restructuring the Ministry with additional departments. I don’t think those were bad ideas per se but I think Dumbledore would have had better ideas. Every leader has advisors, Scrimgeour had Fudge and Umbridge because Dumbledore wouldn’t or couldn’t do it apparently.
Agreed, but as I said in an earlier comment, these are all actions that are more about good PR.
No-one forced him to listen to Fudge and Umbridge, and his interactions with Harry (and presumably Dumbledore) might have been more successful had he been less condescending.
He may not have done anything “wrong” in an ethical sense, but he could have done a lot better.
Of course, we don’t know the details of his and Dumbledore’s argument, so it’s hard to say how much each of them were at fault. It’s easy to imagine his brusqueness and Dumbledore’s obtuseness both causing a breakdown in communication.
Welcome to our podcast, and we are so happy to have you with us! Especially with this caliber of comment!
You lay out an excellent case in defense of Rufus, but I think I concur with Sam and AbsentMindedRaven’s reading of the situation below. I think Scrimgeour got dealt an absolute shit hand, as many leaders in time of crisis are… and he didn’t quite measure up. He overly emphasized appearances, made Stan into a scapegoat, and did very little to actually help with the war against Voldemort.
Would Scrimgeour have done much better with the full cooperation of Harry and Dumbledore? Of course! But one of the realistic and frustrating things about the world Jo builds is that the Good Guys don’t all put their differences aside and work together for noble causes. There are grudges and rivalries and animosities that get in the way. Dumbledore finds this out the hard way when it comes to Snape and Sirius, and same applies here.
And just to rebut a few of your points…
I don’t think we blame Rufus for not standing up for Harry in OP (though nor are we ever given the impression he’s decent and impartial like Amelia Bones). However, it’s completely understandable for a sixteen-year-old to conflate all Ministry officials together after being persecuted by what seemed like the full might of the wizarding government. Rufus should have known Harry’s hackles would be up against all Ministry, not that he would subscribe to the “few bad eggs” theory of the case.
The fact that Scrimgeour didn’t know that Umbridge is horrible… are we to believe that the subject never came up when arguing with Dumbledore? That at no point did Dumbledore say, “You know, Harry might not be eager to help after the abuse he suffered at Umbridge’s hand.” I know we’re not privy to the argument, and I wish we were, but I have to believe the overall dynamic was communicated to Rufus even without gory details.
And on the subject of horcruxes, Dumbledore is absolutely right to keep that information secret. First, the more people know about horcruxes, the more bad actors (like Tom Riddle) will be interested in making them… Dumbledore is trying to stamp out the entire practice, not just get rid of Voldy’s. Second, it’s of paramount importance that Voldemort not find out that people know about them, lest he be even more on guard and make them even harder to destroy. Dumbledore (with good reason) does not trust that information he shares with Rufus will remain secret – whether due to Legilimency, torture, or good plain corruption.
Basically, Albus and Harry’s recalcitrance is understandable, and Rufus should have seen it coming and done more to ameliorate them. He’s the Minister, and (where Harry’s concerned) the grown-up, and he should have done better… and, frankly, never tried to make Harry a mascot.
Lastly, I do wonder how much of Albus’s frosty relationship with Rufus was due to his ticking time bomb of a cursed hand. If he thought that he and Harry would have to content with Rufus for years while they all worked against Voldemort, he may have grudgingly cooperated. But he knows he has a year to live, a million and one things to do before he dies, and that odds are once he’s gone Rufus won’t be leading any anti-Voldemort resistance for long (recall he expects Hogwarts to be in Voldemort’s hands shortly after his death, with the implication of the Ministry following suit). So Albus doesn’t bother, and bears a good chunk of responsibility for how badly things went… but at the end of the day, it’s Rufus who’s Minister, and the buck stops with him.
I’m glad to be here Irvin–thank you!
Are we in agreement that if Amelia Bones hadn’t died, she would’ve been Minister after Fudge? I tend to think so, and wonder how different things would be if she had been named Minister. What actions would she have taken differently from Scrimgeour? Would Dumbledore be more willing to support her than Rufus for whatever reason?
Which leads to my second question…do we think Rufus wanted to be Minister, or was he “voluntold” to step up after Amelia’s death? Not that not wanting the job excuses anything that happens under his watch, but it certainly is something to think about. It’s heavily implied he got the job largely because of his Auror background. We obviously see Kingsley take over at the very end of the series, that would be something I would’ve loved to see at the start of HBP–a Shacklebolt administration! Voldemort probably would’ve died at the end of this book to be honest.
Harry not automatically trusting the Ministry is understandable, for anyone but especially a 16 year old. However, Dumbledore could (and, I think, should) if nothing else have discussed the ramifications of a Voldemort-controlled Ministry with him throughout HBP. Maybe this is something the Order was preparing for throughout the year? We don’t hear about it, but Harry isn’t really involved with the Order directly at this point I guess.
Re: Dumbledore telling Scrimgeour about Umbridge…I’m not 100% convinced even Dumbledore ever found out what happened in the detentions with Umbridge. We know that Dumbledore ignores Harry through most of OotP, and by the time that book is done Harry has so many more pressing matters to discuss with Dumbledore that I’m not sure his hand scars would have ever come up. Hermione and Ron try to convince Harry to report it but he decides against it, as it’s a private battle of wills between him and Umbridge or something to that effect. Dumbledore has many faults as Headmaster, but I have to believe that if he knew about those detentions he would have intervened–especially as he intervenes to give Gryffindor the opportunity to play Quidditch. If he will stand up to Umbridge for Quidditch I would hope he would stand up to Umbridge for her blood quill. Things surprising Dumbledore is not entirely unprecedented, especially in this book–he didn’t know about the DA.
I agree telling Rufus about Horcruxes is a bad move. I never thought about trying to keep the practice as a whole a secret. Is that something that is feasible? The subject is banned at Hogwarts but there are other schools, I can’t imagine Durmstrang students wouldn’t hear the term in passing.
A puppet Minister with an alive and well Dumbledore would certainly not be ideal for Voldemort. Though I think I disagree with you that it would be impossible. We see the Ministry act against Dumbledore throughout Order, and I have to believe that the Ministry infiltration happened while Dumbledore was still living, otherwise it took less than 6 weeks between Dumbledore’s funeral and the Ministry falling. Voldemort’s good but he’s not that good. Who would be Undesirable No. 1, Harry or Dumbledore? Would they travel together? I need this fanfiction!
Loving these discussions and some very excellent points!
I think with Scrimgeour it is a mix of coming into a high position within a fairly broken system (even before Fudge becomes worse than useless, we see the ministry is corrupt and seems in bitter need of reform) while there is a war looming. In other words, a situation you’re almost guaranteed to fail in.
On the topic of Horcruxes, I think it was the right call to not trust any of the order of the ministry with this knowledge about how to defeat Voldemort. In a way, Dumbledore leaves it up to Harry if he wants to broaden his support network, but he does encourage him to involve Ron and Hermione. I know we brought this up before, but in a world where the golden trio truly includes the silver trio in their friendship group, those could have been the only other trustworthy people I could think of with this knowledge. And in a way, Harry at least lets Neville into part of the secret at the end.
You raise an interesting point, about the knowledge of Horcruxes worldwide: it’s generally a bit of a mystery to me that in a world with pretty good travel connections between countries the wizarding world seems very disconnected – especially compared to our world in 2023. So yes Dumbledore’s actions will only have a true impact on Britain. But the books are almost exclusively set in Britain, aside from Voldy hanging out in Albania we don’t see that much of the broader wizarding world, and it would seem that while Voldemort is known outside of Britain other countries are not concerned with helping out the Brits against Voldemort. This is not something we could really imagine in our world that such a big war would break out and everyone else would just watch passively and not offer any type of support or be concerned about what this could mean for them. Especially neighbouring countries like France, Belgium, Norway, Netherlands, Denmark, and Germany.
I am in agreement that Amelia would have been the heir presumptive to the Minister job, as the Head of Dept of Law Enforcement. I’ve spoken often about my belief that Amelia Bones was meant for far more in HBP, and was a casualty of the editing process. Yes, I think that Amelia would have had a much more cordial relationship with Albus and Harry both – particularly because she’s one of the few Ministry employees who has a modicum of goodwill with Harry, after she was decent during his trial. I’m guessing that Harry and Dumbledore’s job was too easy with a decent and helpful Minister of Magic, so Jo had to get her out of the picture and saddle them with Rufus to make life difficult.
I don’t think Rufus was voluntold to be Minister – he probably thought it his duty to take over as Minister, convinced as he was that he’d be better than most alternatives. I don’t have much evidence to support this middle ground reading, but he never seems to revel in the office the way Fudge did, but nor is he in any way reluctant to throw his weight around as Minister.
I think you have the right of it – Ministry matters are largely an Order of the Phoenix concern. Dumbledore wants Harry focused on (a) becoming a full-fledged wizard and all, (b) defeating Voldemort by destroying his horcruxes. We know Dumbledore likes a divide-and-conquer approach in his delegation, so Harry’s in charge of Horcruxes, Snape’s in charge of Hogwarts, and maybe Kingsley is in charge of the Ministry.
Re: horcruxes – maybe Durmstrang students would hear the term, but knowledge in the wizarding world is very de-centralized. They don’t have an internet on which to look up things like horcruxes, and access to knowledge seems to depend largely on the books (or people) who’re nearby. Even if a few people at Durmstrang know about it, that greatly decreases the odds that any wizards outside the school would find out. If Dumbledore put his mind to it, he could even work on that – after all, he’s an influential wizard even in international circles, as Supreme Mugwump of the International Confederation of Wizards. I could see him calling up the Durmstrang board of trustees and being like, “Hey, maybe we get these books out of the library… and in exchange I’ll send you a branch of Gubraithian fire!”
Re: infiltration – I’m sure the Ministry was infiltrated prior to Dumbledore’s death. Indeed, there are wizards there working for or controlled by Voldemort even in the first war. But there’s a vast difference between undermining Dumbledore’s efforts and passing Voldemort information, versus the out-in-the-open Mudblood persecution the Ministry undertakes in DH. The Ministry acts against Dumbledore in OP, but it’s through bureaucracy and the court of public opinion. If there were a puppet Minister, I believe Dumbledore would behave much more forcefully than he did with Fudge, and wouldn’t stand for it. (Though I would also be down with reading that fanfic!)
Some random thoughts I had while listening:
Excellent comment! Agreed on all counts here.
I can’t fault Harry for reverting to a childlike “they are the villains!” mentality because I literally do the same thing as a reader, and I’m now quite a bit older and more removed from the situation than Harry was at sixteen.
I think part of why I am so against the “nagging with the glasses” is that the whole “they deserve it because they were horrible first” feels like the kindergarten mentality of, if that person hits me, I am allowed to hit back. And yes that can be very satisfying, but to truly be the better person you shouldn’t sink to their level.
Dumbledore does this very well until the moment with the glasses, he does not sink to their level of outright being rude, but rather cleverly puts them in their place. I truly love this, but it does get ruined for me by the moment that follows.
Truly if Dumbledore was so horrified with the Dursleys he could have stepped in sooner rather than ignore the situation until the end.
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